Posts by moggy lover

56

Does the Watchtower really parallel 1st Century Christianity?

by Emery in

i wanted to get a list of arguments that illustrate how the watchtower society is or isn't following 1st century christianity today.

thanks again everyone!.

moggy lover

It would be extremely naive for anyone to deny that the Watchtower does have a clergy class. This is understandable since the rank and file are persistently mesmerized into believing that they do not. However, although the rank and file deny it, the Watchtower leadership THEMSELVES admit that they do have a clergy. Should anyone fall foul of the leadership and has need to sue them, he will promptly be told that "clergy priviledge" protects all Watchtower Followers who are professionally inducted into the movement. If you earn your living, no matter how much of a pittance, from the coffers of the Watchtower, you are regarded by the Watchtower as a member of its clergy.

It is also impossible to "prove" that first century Christianity was led by a secretive, largely anonymous group of self serving men called a "Governing Body". The expression is found nowhere in the NT, and considering the fact that Paul had so many clashes with them, the possiblity is reduced to pure fiction. The text that the Watchtower suggests as a prop for this doctrine, Heb 13:7 [especially as a ritualized footnote in the Bible with References edition] wasn't written until about 65-69 AD, almost a generation after the start of the Christian Church in 30 AD. What did the early Christians do till then? How could they endure a doctrine of a "Governing Body" before it had actually been revealed?

If the early Christians had a "Faithful and Discreet Slave" class BEFORE 70 AD, when the first fulfillment of Matt 24 was to take place, then who were they? Were they ALL "anointed" Christians? Women were as "anointed" as men back in the first century, weren't they? So, did the FDS include women who supplied this "food at the proper time" thus effectively teaching other Christian believers? Did Christian women go from door-to-door back in the first centiury? This would be particularly strange given that women NEVER called privately on anyone, unless of course they were soliciting business of a questionable kind!! Note that EVERY illustration that the anonymous Watchtower writers provide, shows MEN only doing this activity.

It would be difficult to show that first century Christians met in "Kingdom Halls", when the NT indicates that they met regularly in private homes. There is certaily no evidence to show that they observed the "memorial" of Christ's death only once a year. Indeed their approach to this was to observe His Resurrection as a living Saviour, not His death.

On balance it must be added that every cult believes it, and it alone, is the exclusive inheritor of the first century Christian legacy, and all make the same grotesque claims that the Watchtower does. Some claim that the early Christians spoke in tongues so modern Christians should do so, which then becomes a mark of exclusivity. Some claim that Sabbath observance was a vital link in the chain, others that the keeping of the original Jewish feasts such as Passover, Tabernacles, and so on, were symptoms of this continuity, and on and on it goes.

10

How's do jws explain Genesis 35:18

by loosie in

genesis 35:18 (new world translation).

.and the result was that as her soul[a] was going out (because she died) she called his name benoni; but his father called him benjamin.. .

.. i never asked them and now i can't .

moggy lover

I think the trick lies in the way Freddy Franz used, rather than "translated" the Hebrew word "yatsah" which occurs here. The word in its broadest sense means "to depart", that is, to leave one area and to transfer to another. That Franz knew the meaning of this word is evident from the way he "translated" such verses as Ex 16:1. Here, as in other verses, he used the word "depart".

But at Gen 35:18, the translation used was ambiguous enough to mean something rather different from an actual transfer from one place to another. In using "going out" as his preferred option, Franz allowed for a conclusion that more aptly referred to a light bulb, rather a departing to another location. When one turns a light off, or as someone mentioned above, blows a candle out, it "goes out" thus implying an "extinguishing" rather than a "departing". That is what Franz conveniently suggested Gen 35:18 meant.

In many ways, Franz used the notion of the NW"T" as being a literal translation to create a version that could, in many verses that are awkward to Watchtower theology, be so excruciatingly literal as to be totally unintelligible.

80

Posters!!! Are YOU Male or Female???

by minimus in

jw
friends

sometimes i get confused.

.

moggy lover

Well....I stand when I pee, so I must be male!

71

12/15/12 Watchower Study Edition - Higher Eduction = Thinking in a "complicated" manner

by yourmomma in

i found this quote from the 12/15/12 p.29 study edition of the watchtower to be hilarious:.

"a college graduate in the united states.

says: i spent 18 years speaking and writing.

moggy lover

I can't seem to find this magazine on the web. It certainly is not available on the Watchtower.org site. Is there another web site that publishes current Watchtower literature?

7

Is KIT 1 or 2 available in any language other than English?

by moggy lover in

does anyone know for a fact whether the wts released any foreign language editions of either kit 1 or 2?.

such as french or german or spanish?.

moggy lover

Does anyone know for a fact whether the WTS released any foreign language editions of either KIT 1 or 2?

Such as French or German or Spanish?

22

HEAR YE! HEAR YE! ADVENTISTS' GROWTH RATE IN BRAZIL OUTSTRIPS JWS'

by steve2 in

jw
friends

joker10 started a thread some days ago - putatively just to "inform" us - about the growth of self-identifying jehovahs witnesses in brazil across two census periods, the year 2000 to the year 2010. this led to some enlivened discussion about growth rates, including in particular how this compared with other similar 'vintage' 'christianized' religions such as the mormons (latter-day saints of the church of jesus christ) and seventh-day adventists (sdas).

joker10 readily obliged by posting within the same day the relevant growth rates for the latter-day saints in brazil over the same census periods.

the jw growth rate easily outstripped those for the latter-day saints.

moggy lover

Cedars:

I got my stats from the official SDA web page: www.adventist.org/world-church/facts-and figures/index/html

To treat the growth/decline in the USA I tried to be objective by reading both the following sites, the first is positive, the second negative:

1. http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-03-08-Adventists 17 ST N.htm

2. "Future trends in the SDA Church": by Tom Norris at:

all.experts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-213/2011

steve2: Thanks, mate.

SBF: Yes that is true. However, I was more interested in presenting the medical mission field that the SDAs run because of my familiarity with it. But it is true that they are big on education. I did see the number of these they maintain world wide but did not record it. I know they do run a university site in Avondale, New South Wales, here in Aussie, that teaches up to post graduate level in most disciplines of study.

Incidently, I appear to have goofed in one area. Under number 4, the number of hospitals and sanitariums run by the SDAs worldwide, the number is actually 173, not 137.

22

HEAR YE! HEAR YE! ADVENTISTS' GROWTH RATE IN BRAZIL OUTSTRIPS JWS'

by steve2 in

jw
friends

joker10 started a thread some days ago - putatively just to "inform" us - about the growth of self-identifying jehovahs witnesses in brazil across two census periods, the year 2000 to the year 2010. this led to some enlivened discussion about growth rates, including in particular how this compared with other similar 'vintage' 'christianized' religions such as the mormons (latter-day saints of the church of jesus christ) and seventh-day adventists (sdas).

joker10 readily obliged by posting within the same day the relevant growth rates for the latter-day saints in brazil over the same census periods.

the jw growth rate easily outstripped those for the latter-day saints.

moggy lover

While we are on the subject I thought I might share some recent research I did in comparing the evangelistic outreach of both, the SDAs and the WTS.

1. Number of Lands Operating in:

WTS: 237

SDA: 207

At first glance it might appear that the WTS has a wider outreach than the SDAs, until we recall that Cedars recently posted a chart showing how, in 30 unnamed lands the WTS presence was either minimal, or outright fictional. Subtracting this figure leaves both groups operating in the same battleground, and they are competing for market share in largely the same market.

2. Languages used in Publishing:

WTS: 197

SDA:: 377

Obviously the outreach here is much more weighted in the SDA favour. It appears that they take their responsibilities in this matter more seriously than the WTS

3. Charitable Outreach:

WTS: None

SDA: ADRA

ADRA is the name for the worldwide charity legally established by the SDAs and operating internationally. It stands for Adventist Development and Relief Agency.

4. Health Care for the Poor:

WTS: None

SDA: 137 Hospitals worldwide

When I lived in India where I was born of mixed British Indian parentage, and where I pioneered as a Wt Follower in the 60s and 70, doing absolutely nothing for the people, the SDAs were building the first cancer hospital in Inda at Chennai [Madras]. Named the Ira B Scudder Cancer Hospital it was gifted to the people of India forever, to be used to provide moderately priced health care for the poor.

5. Income from Membership:

WTS: Closely guarded secret, believed to be declining

SDA: 2.2 Billion Dollars

This large figure can be accounted for in the SDA group because they exact a tithe from the membership.

6. Charity Payouts:

WTS: None.

SDA: 2.2 Million Dollars

If there are any charitable contributions made in the WTS, these are from the membership at large, and never from the closely guarded coffers of the leadership. Also, any such charity is largely in-house rather than for outsiders. As one can see, the SDA leadership at least tries to live up to its creed. Approximately a tithe of offerings given to them goes to charitable outreach.

7. Worldwide Membership:

WTS: 7.2. Million

SDA: 17.3 Million

Both figures are approximate and are both taken from the official web sites.

5. India Figures:

WTS :32,000

SDA: 900,000

Both figures, are again approximate.

6. India Baptisms:

WTS: 2,000

SDA: 25,000

7.Worldwide baptisms:

WTS 300,000

SDA: 1.1 Million

Again the figures will vary yearly, and are approximate.

Both groups seem to be in decline in the same areas, ie, the developed world, but for different reasons. As far as the WTS is concerned, this decline appears to be related to the rise of Internet usage which exposes some of the more outlandish claims made by the largely secretive leadership.

In the case of the SDAs, it appears that their Church is undergoing a sharp identity crises along with, in North America at least, bad managment. The theological debates regarding dependance on Ellen White and the works/salvation area refuse to go away, and while the Church Leadership continues to decline any genuine attempt at reconciling this division, defections are continuing at an increasing rate. There are now more SDAs in India than there are in the USA!

Are the SDAs more culturally diverse and internationally spread than the WTS? No figures are available from the WTS, but SDA figures are:

African Membership: 37%

Hispanic Membership: 30%

East Asian Membership: 14%

Caucasian Membership: 11%

Others: 6%

2

Has the GB ever admitted that Jehovah has an invisible body?

by moggy lover in

this is a natural consequence of the watchtower position that their god is in a finite location in some corner of the sky.

if he is locative and in a specific place, does this mean that he has, in some sort of sense a "body"?

thus, like the mormons who believe that the "father" has a literal and physical body made of flesh and bone, does tha watchtower also believe that their deity too, has a body, albeit an invisible, "spirit" one?.

moggy lover

WOW! You came through, Blondie!

That's what I was looking for!

2

Has the GB ever admitted that Jehovah has an invisible body?

by moggy lover in

this is a natural consequence of the watchtower position that their god is in a finite location in some corner of the sky.

if he is locative and in a specific place, does this mean that he has, in some sort of sense a "body"?

thus, like the mormons who believe that the "father" has a literal and physical body made of flesh and bone, does tha watchtower also believe that their deity too, has a body, albeit an invisible, "spirit" one?.

moggy lover

This is a natural consequence of the Watchtower position that their god is in a finite location in some corner of the sky. If he is locative and in a specific place, does this mean that he has, in some sort of sense a "body"?

Thus, like the Mormons who believe that the "Father" has a literal and physical body made of flesh and bone, does tha Watchtower also believe that their deity too, has a body, albeit an invisible, "spirit" one?

Can anyone tell me if the writers of Watchtower literature ever made any statement to this effect?

27

What biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?

by JWB in

what biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?.

as most folks here are probably well aware, the wts teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of christ to restore humans to perfection.

they teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'.

moggy lover

It is true that the Watchtower were not the first to come up with the 7,000 year creation-day theory, but they were the most strident and held on to the teaching for several years. They have never formally retracted the teaching, but have made more cautionary statements over the years. For instance, the original "[Human] Reasoning on the Scriptures" book accepted this teaching, but the revised edition, published in 1989 merely mentions the time as being "several thousand years in length".

As other posters have mentioned, the Watchtower no longer makes any reference to this teaching, which they once held with such passionate vigour. Basically, the "[human] reasoning" behind this teaching was:

1. Every one one of the six creative days are said to begin and end, using the Hebraic expression, the "evening and the morning was....". But no such expression is used with the seventh day. Therefore the only "reasonable" conclusion is that the seventh day did not end during the time of the Bible record.

[Answer: Most Evangelical Christians will disagree. This is not the only "reasonable" conclusion to draw. Because the seventh day was to be a day of special significance in Jewish theological perception, its end was not signified by the expression common to the other days. Its end was signified by the expression "And God rested on the seventh day...". Despite the convoluted way Franz "translated" this phrase implying a present continuous structure, the Hebrew perfect as used here is a past tense, hence a completed action, not a continuing one.]

2. The Seventh day must be still continuing because Hebs:4:4-6 speaks of Gods "rest day" being in operation at this time.

[Answer: Again Evangelicals will disagree. This is not talking of the Seventh creation "day" - since "day" is not used here. It is talking of God's Rest, not His rest "day". The writer of Hebrews is discussing how we enjoy security or rest by believing in Christ. God's rest, since Calvary has been to gather believers in Christ who can have the security of belief and freedom from the fear of death. They do this by entering God's rest. This is contrasted with the Exodus generation who lacked such belief.]

3. Since we "know" that Adam was created in in 4026 BC, more than six thousand years of human history has passed. [6037 years to be precise] So we must be periously close to the end. It is necessary then to accept the GB and all its pronouncements and hasten to join the Organization to survive into the New World.

[Answer: There is no answer. Since 1889, when the Watchtower first published a date for Adam's creation, [4128 BC] it has had the need to correct this date five further times:

1.1896: 4129.

2.1943: 4028

3.1944: 4026

4.1953: 4025

5. 1963: 4026]